del aparaturos

[elviukai]

Idomi diskusija, neturiu LT raidyno, o bano gaut nenoriu- its not posible to compare scan speak 18w8545-00 with focal w cone drivers. They are totaly diferent schools. Focal have stiff and light cone and pronuonced break up(thought they damp it quite nicely, but its still can be seen on decay graph and higher order harmonic) scan speak always using soft cones- I have measured over 20 diferent versions of scan speak carbon faber cones ,and if they are not impregnated heavily with glue they do not have any break up. technicaly focal w is far better drivers than scan speak , for comparing 2nd order discortion is lower by 14(!) db at lower midrange. Thats says a lot. Scan speak 18w8545 uses VC position in gap lower(bigest part of coil is lower in gap- for higher BL)

Sonicaly Focal W is "tranparent fast and neutral" , scan speak is " warm,lush, smooth" In car enviroment there will not be(or will be very litle) benefit with Focal W drivers however.

Jeigu čia man, tai nedirbu su Focal ir ateityje neplanuoju. Beje lygiai taip pat ir su Hertz, man tai to pačio lizdo paukščiai. Iš senų Focal esu girdėjęs gerų, nauji beviltiški. Patys pagalvokit, didmeninė šių garsiakalbių kaina yra minus 35% vos ne kiekvienam meistrui, dėl to jie ir brukami per visus galus...
Teisingus garsiakalbius gamina labai nedaug gamintojų ir tai ne visi modeliai yra teisingi. Pvz:

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/18w_8545-00.htm
http://www.tymphany.com/categories/vifa

Iš to automobiliams skirto dumblo kas yra Lietuvoje sunku kažką surasti padoraus. Kalbant atvirai, man net neįdomu ieškoti, kai reikia žinau ką galima naudot

[Artūras-M]

its not posible to compare scan speak 18w8545-00 with focal w cone drivers. They are totaly diferent schools. Focal have stiff and light cone and pronuonced break up(thought they damp it quite nicely, but its still can be seen on decay graph and higher order harmonic) scan speak always using soft cones

Nesutikčiau, kad negalima lyginti. Lyginti galima viską. Nes jeigu lyginam difuzoriaus kietumą, automatiškai galim lyginti ir skambėjimą. Focal smarkiai presuoti difuzoriai, Scan Spek, Vifa sakykim presavimas yra ne toks. O šiaip presuotas vs mažiau presuotas čia atskira diskusiaj, aš už mažiau presuotus arba visiškai nepresuotus ir silpnai impregnuotus (papildomai impregnuoti reikalui esant galiu pats) difuzorius, bet čia jau IMHO.

technicaly focal w is far better drivers than scan speak , for comparing 2nd order discortion is lower by 14(!) db at lower midrange.

Tranzistoriniai stiprintuvai techniškai yra visa galva (ar net keliomis) aukščiau už lempinius.... o skaitmeniniai stiprintuvai, tai tikriausiai dviem galvom

Sonicaly Focal W is "tranparent fast and neutral" , scan speak is " warm,lush, smooth" In car enviroment there will not be(or will be very litle) benefit with Focal W drivers however.

Na tikrai nėra Focal neutralūs. Nei teoriškai nei praktiškai negali smarkiai presuotas difuzorius būti neutralaus garso šaltinis. Neutralumą šiuo atveju labiau tiktų vadinti "šaltumu", sakyčiau šiems Focal būdingas monitorinis + "ciniškai šaltas" skambėjimas, automobilyje dėl didelės atspindžių/skardų vibracijos įtakos tai dar labiau sustiprėja. Tuo tarpu minimo Scan Speak modelio skambesys į automobilio salono erdvę paišosi labai neblogai. Žinoma, galima pasiryžus naudoti Focal atitinkamai paruošti montavimo vietas/tūrius ir sumažinti pašalinių veiksnių įtaką, tačiau atsiras nauji pašaliniai padariniai (papildomas slopinimas to ko nereikia slopinti). Realiai tik dar labiau komplikuojama situacija. Šiaip, Focal būdinga vaikytis techninių parametrų naudojant modernias priemones, deja tai ne visada naudinga geram garsui. Bet čia jau IMHO.

[elviukai]

Yes we can compare everything, but it only makes sense when we comparing it to personal tastes. And thats is all fun in audio As for scan speak- I am a big fan of scan speak drivers on medium or low priced priced sytems-they play excelent in this configurations-both home and car instaliations. But this is not the case with Focals. I will not get in technical stuff (lot of time to write here) WHY this hapens. Sonicaly its wise to compare scan speak to Audiotechnology drivers-they both have quite comon design. One disadvantage of comparing Focal to scan speak is that Scan uses exactly the same drivers in car range(only VC resistance diferent- thicker wire or sometimes -double layer ) Focal car drivers range are made specialy for car and they actualy „spoil“sound. WHy? because of You car lovers you want pump up the power to drivers- and thay design drivers with 4 layers thick and rounded wire, suspension and surounds is stiff and CMS skyrockets together with Fs, excursion is longer thus they increase gap width – eficienty drops dramaticaly. Thats is very bad- becaue W cone slost its most benefits(light mass) As for tweeters scan speak tweeters havee the same rule and car drivers vs home range is almost the same. This is another reason what focal Tbe tweeters sound harsh spizzy and agresive- closed chamber bought compression. But Its small enought to fit most cars instaliations. Unlike scan speak 70000 or even 60000 which have vented chambers. I think nobody in Lithuania had chance to compare theese drivers (homefocal vs home scan speak) mainly because theese drivers not available to public. I have actualy over 300 psc diferent drivers including all new line of utopia III 2009 home version drivers used for ex. in Grande EM speakers costing 180 000usd. Theese drivers performs like no scan speak ever will( and actualy scan speak more and more degrade sound- revelator series was only parial upgrade over clasic series(better higher midrange and better bass,otherwises 18w8545 „kills“ 18w851g from range 100 to 1.2khz hands down ) ,and the samples i tested/used from new iluminator range tell me that they comes not as upgrade but downgrade with increasing price and inscreasing bass) I think Focal can be compared to Accuton drivers, or Magico Nano-tech drivers. and BTW- I do not split amplifiers to tube or solid state tyopes - best solide state amps sounds exactly like best tube amps and vice versa- NATURAL. I have build quite a bunch tube amps with japan tango transformers, western electric tubes, russian tubes, silver foil caps, interstage variuos configurations. good tube amp wil have more liquid midange and more lush in timbre while good transitor amp will sound more tight and tranparent. ANd yes- always amplifier with good specifications and lot of feedback(be it negative or local aplied ) or more than 3 stages will sound much less natural and involving than amp with lower feedback aplied.

But this is not the case with drivers- lower discortion driver will produce better sound for sure. Question only are how to benefit from it without sacrifing other things. I have measured some cars, some SQ competition cars and this data tells me why people using scan speaks,dynaudio and audiotechnology- even with bad implementation(which is arround 95% cars I think unfortunatley ) it will sound decent. Focal will never sound decent with any car amp- it can be brax or even well respected amps like soundstream human reign or any car tube based amp seems on wawe now its just usualy its marketing tricks for customers. .Its basic-there can not be high end amplification or source in car,mainly because one pole power supply and 12-14 voltage.

[ištrinta]

[Artūras-M]

Pirmiausiai siūlyčiau atskirti marketingo interesus ir gudrybes nuo gero garso. Lyginant Focal vs Scan Speak mes iš esmės pasirašom sau nuosprendį, kurį sufabrikuoja abiejų šių firmų marketingo skyriai.
Abi šios firmos yra kultinės apipintos mitais, kurie naudingi marketingui, bet ne žmogui kuris pats bando susikurpti gerą sistemą. Pats gamini kolonėles, puikiai supranti, kad Lietuvoje o ir pasaulyje lengviau parduoti prasčiau grojančias kolonėles su žinomos firmos dinamikais, nei su kažkokiais bevardžiais, net tuo atveju, jeigu bevardžiai bus daug geresni. Lygiai tas pats automobilyje, tūlam klientu maloniau pirkti brendinį produktą, bet ne gatavą sprendimą.

[IMHO]
Scan Speak gama automobiliams susiveda į tris pozicijas - 18w8545 dvijuostės, 18w8545K trijuostės priešbosiai + 2904 viskas, taškas.
Focal situacija yra dar blogiau, nes kiek žinau, geri buvo Polyglass berods prieš penkis metus paskutiniai padorūs priešbosiai (tokie lyg ir bitumu aptaškytu difuzorium). K, Utopia serijos kaina didelė, naudos mažai.
[/IMHO]

Focal car drivers range are made specialy for car and they actualy „spoil“sound. WHy? because of You car lovers you want pump up the power to drivers

Čia yra nonsensas, vėl maišai komercinius interesus su geru garsu. Šio forumo senbuviams jau nusispjauti ant to, kiek galima vatų prastumti per ritę.

I have actualy over 300 psc diferent drivers including all new line of utopia III 2009 home version drivers used for ex. in Grande EM speakers costing 180 000usd.

Jeigu natūroj turi šituos, tuomet su įdomumu laukiu aprašymų, nuotraukų ir tt. Kaina jų nėra adekvati, tačiau įdomu ką realiai pasiekė naudodami Field Coil. Netikiu, kad jie perspjaus senus vintažinius, tačiau vis gi įdomu.

P.S. Komercinius interesus prašau tiesiogiai spręsti per PM, be jokių užuominų.

[tolka]

Kokie bebūtų geri ar gražūs tie focal...Yra gražesnių
http://www.field-coil.com/#field_coil

[elviukai]

ok the last one note.

1) Memeber ciubarikas called me and said some member(likely someone of forum moderators) will need 8545-00 and somebody 6000. 8545 will be gift, 6000 will be sold i quess. I do not know exact nicknames.please contactim him, he knows my phone and you can pick up drivers in kaunas.

regarding good sound- danemark drivers are nice-almost all. Scan speak have its own sound perception but its opne to cusotm orders, they can maufacture for example 97db/2.83v/m sensitivity driver on 18w8545 base. or metal cone, or hybryd metal -kevlar and polypropylene sandwich- there many custom versions o scan speaks.
The only drivers from clasic woofers suited to car (with lower VAS)is 18w4545-00 /02 versions. they plays perfectly 6-7liters.


""Čia yra nonsensas, vėl maišai komercinius interesus su geru garsu. Šio forumo senbuviams jau nusispjauti ant to, kiek galima vatų prastumti per ritę.
""

Focal do not care about few people, last year i was in they factory - they are big company and orientied in mass production target. Lower CMS driver(having softer low loss suspension,spider sytem) will overbotom at higher power and its unaceptable for 95% cusotmers who wants to "pump up the power" scan speak uses higher CMS but also uses diferent solution for this.

""Jeigu natūroj turi šituos, tuomet su įdomumu laukiu aprašymų, nuotraukų ir tt. Kaina jų nėra adekvati, tačiau įdomu ką realiai pasiekė naudodami Field Coil. Netikiu, kad jie perspjaus senus vintažinius, tačiau vis gi įdomu.""


Sorry no photo, and i am not gonna slide in to show something UNTIL newer generation of Utopia IV will show. I also do not defend speakers performance or price. Its just fun to listen them thats all. I can invite for audition theese speakers in my place ,or also smaller JM LAB Maestro. I think memeber Ciubarikas saw some utopia 3 drivers in my studio few times, you can ask him.

If you interesting to try I can sell some older(discontinued ) Utopia 2002 Be tweeters(from 2002-2007years grande Be) see pic, theese are them MUCH better drivers than car TBE.

By the way I have good news for focal lovers(confident information) - after 2 years focal will launch car driver(midbass) with EM technology, they are basicaly still nowhere but they will fisnih it in 2011.

OK that ALL see you next time , and please turn off this Lithuanian language resctriction if posible (i understand particulary idea and purpsoses but..) -it realy makes silly to write EN in LT..

[Artūras-M]

Focal do not care about few people, last year i was in they factory - they are big company and orientied in mass production target.

Kadangi mes esam maži žmonės ir mūsų nedaug, tai mes visiškai nesirūpinam didelių firmų problemomis Tai liečia ne tik Focal. Ir šitos firmos praras elitinius pirkėjus dar ilgam. Kol kas yra masė vintažinių garsiakalbių už gana logišką kainą ir puikiai skambančių.

If you interesting to try I can sell some older(discontinued ) Utopia 2002 Be tweeters(from 2002-2007years grande Be) see pic, theese are them MUCH better drivers than car TBE.

Sorry, I don't have any interest in focal or other similar production. Maybe others from our community have. You can add a proposal at our marketplace.

OK that ALL see you next time , and please turn off this Lithuanian language resctriction if posible (i understand particulary idea and purpsoses but..) -it realy makes silly to write EN in LT..

Sometimes a non lithuanian symbols doesn't violate our Community Guidelines, but not permanently. i-Klubas are big audio Community in Lithuania and we don't care about few people which don't wont write normally in lithuanian. You can continue write in english, it's no problem
Our position you can see here.

Have a nice evening or maybe night